tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post7081719226234317795..comments2023-07-10T17:01:53.149+01:00Comments on Pupillage and How to Get It.: Mature EntrantsSMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06066695497843105646noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-71832573798206745792021-05-08T12:20:11.148+01:002021-05-08T12:20:11.148+01:00A friend of mine had been a successful MD, had a H...A friend of mine had been a successful MD, had a HR Degree, then an MBA. <br /><br />At the age of 51 his son was killed, he and his wife then had to endure a very painful reliving of his death at Leicester Crown Court in 2016. It was at that point after meeting several mediocre barristers and one absolutely brilliant one (who is now a judge), that he thought 'I could do that'. <br /><br />He took his law conversion course, and is now in the final few months of his BPTC. <br /><br />I feel his previous commercial experience will definitely be helpful to him. <br /><br />A very brave step to take after 50!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-4038484406029700162018-12-10T11:24:25.359+00:002018-12-10T11:24:25.359+00:00Dear Anon
I originally posted as Catneylawyer2B an...Dear Anon<br />I originally posted as Catneylawyer2B and I had e-mailed Simon Myerson specifically about this subject. He then made the post on the blog. I also posted on the blog later 15 July 2014.<br />I completed the GDL followed by the BVC and was called to the Bar at Middle Temple July 2010, I was 41. Before and after call I completed a lot of pupillage applications. I did not get an interview from any of them. The process seems to be heavily weighted on how you did in your A levels and which Uni you went to! <br />I had high hopes that my time spent in business as both a buyer and a salesperson would count for something since all I had done during that time was negotiate and persuade – key skills for a barrister, I thought.<br />I began some temp work at a solicitor firm and then made the decision to cross qualify in the last year that the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Test (QLTT) was available. I was admitted to the roll in 2013. I was lucky that I found someone who was just setting up a law firm. My marketing skills were of use to them and they supported me through the QLTT. We have now been partners in the firm for the last 4 years.<br />I originally wanted to go to the Bar because I wanted to be my own boss, as far as I am concerned I have now achieved working in law and being my own boss. With hindsight, if I am totally honest, I am not sure I would have had the stamina to work as a junior barrister even at the age of 41. I have friends from the BVC who have achieved their goal of becoming a barrister some only in the last year, 8 years on from call (coincidentally at Simon Bradshaw’s chambers). There are less of these success stories than were in my year on the BVC! I also have a friend who was called in 1974 she is constantly running around the country and is exhausted most of the time.<br />Coming back to your situation, completing everything at 61 and having no prior experience in law I would say you have absolutely no hope of getting a pupillage let alone practising. You will however meet some great people, have a fabulous time studying and ‘dining’ at your Inn. As long as your expectations are set to that level anything else is a bonus. <br />I work in the field of wills, probate and trusts. You could always set yourself up as a will writer and be self employed, if that area of law appeals to you. You do not need any qualifications to do this because it is not a regulated activity. This fact irritates me, given the qualifications I now have, but it provides a lot of people with ‘career’ working in law.<br />What you need to think about is:<br />1) Can I afford not to work for the next 4 years?<br />2) Can I afford not have a job at the end of it?<br />3) If I could use the qualifications that I gain, what would I really like to do with them? If I can’t achieve the ideal then what other options are there? If it is the buzz of the court you like perhaps look at roles within the court system such as a court usher?<br />Best of luck whatever you decide and if you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09833403398862578168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-84982262950402147272018-12-08T10:19:20.402+00:002018-12-08T10:19:20.402+00:00Gosh, it's odd to come back and read my commen...Gosh, it's odd to come back and read my comments from ten years ago (I was LawClanger).<br /><br />Update on me: after 40 applications and 16 interviews, I got offered pupillage in Birmingham. I became a tenant at Cornwall Street in early 2012 and now, at 50, have a busy mixed civil/family practice and have just had my first pupil of my own complete pupillage. We've also just taken on as a tenant a pupil in his 50s who came to us after a career in the police.<br /><br />Anon: you say that you want to be called to the bar. That's attainable by hard work if you have the aptitude. Is that your goal, or are you asking what your prospects of obtaining pupillage and a practice at the bar are?<br /><br />I sit on our recruitment committee. Every year we get about 120-150 applications, a fair percentage of which are from mature candidates. Although our application form does not include information such as age or gender (that goes on a separate cover sheet that the committee don't see when doing the initial paper sift) a mature candidate will inevitably stick out because he or she will usually have an extensive CV or will describe work far more senior than a recent graduate would have done. Provided the work is relevant and the candidate's reasons for leaving it are good, that if anything is a positive - it means we have a candidate with proven success and potentially relevant experience. However, it is not a free pass on selection; I have seen applications which are little more than a CV with the clear assumption that we will interview on that alone. No, we want all candidates to explain to us why they would make a good barrister who would fit in with our practice areas.<br /><br />If you say you'll be 61 when you finish the BPTC, you'll realistically be 62 or 63 when you complete pupillage. Our policy is that unless you have substantial prior legal experience (in which case you would likely not join as a pupil but via transfer and exemption) then you would have to do all the usual work of a junior tenant. The question to ask yourself is whether you want to spend your mid-sixties hauling yourself and your papers off to courts an hour or two's travel away to deal with ABH, minor motoring offences and parenting disputes. Do not underestimate the physical and mental demands of pupillage and junior tenancy. Finally, whilst many chambers value the experience of mature candidates, there is inevitably going to be the concern as to whether the return from a candidate in his or her early 60s (both financial, in terms of fee percentage, and also in terms general business development) can repay the substantial time and money investment in putting someone through pupillage.Simon Bradshawnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-29544779745302113802018-12-07T13:35:46.267+00:002018-12-07T13:35:46.267+00:00I'm not sure if this forum is actually monitor...I'm not sure if this forum is actually monitored anymore, but here goes.....<br /><br />I'm probably the most mature student to embark on the quest to be called to the bar. I've just commenced a full time law degree, with ambitions to take the BPTC at the end of it. By the time I've completed that, presuming I do, I'll be 61 years old!<br /><br />So, the question I'm putting out here for all you great minds is this: am I just making a fool of myself? Is this a ridiculous ambition, one that can never realistically be achieved? I have no legal background. My entire career has been spent in the film industry. I do not even have any previous degree-level education. I do have a love for the law, and a desire to work within it, although not for fiscal gain really because I'm sorted financially.<br /><br />I'd appreciate some viewpoints.....<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-35879566145094209282017-08-03T17:04:33.790+01:002017-08-03T17:04:33.790+01:00As someone who just did the BPTC aged 24, I don...As someone who just did the BPTC aged 24, I don't think 45 is too old. But make sure you do well as there is a lot of competition. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-45105866708826611372017-01-15T18:16:11.650+00:002017-01-15T18:16:11.650+00:00Mr Pineapples would you say doing pupillage at 45 ...Mr Pineapples would you say doing pupillage at 45 is too old to attempt? <br /><br />RegardsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14286088452784428743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-1856069471513263782017-01-15T17:54:21.001+00:002017-01-15T17:54:21.001+00:00Mr Pineapples would you say doing pupillage at 45 ...Mr Pineapples would you say doing pupillage at 45 is too old to attempt? <br /><br />RegardsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14286088452784428743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-28884905313398838552014-07-15T11:44:21.395+01:002014-07-15T11:44:21.395+01:00Dear Anonymous
I confess to being the cause of th...Dear Anonymous<br /><br />I confess to being the cause of this post many moons ago! As the enthusiastic Catney Lawyer2B. I hadn't started studying then! <br />The following is based on my experience and if you want anything further you can find me on LinkedIn.<br />I was 41 when called to the Bar with a Very Competent overall and outstanding in 2 assessments including advocacy. I had a great time studying but when it came to pupillage interviews there were none. The application process is limiting in itself – you can only apply for a certain number of sets through pupillage portal although some sets do have their own process outside of this.<br />My A level results (despite being taken in 1987) did not cut the mustard. The application process is geared to guys who have just finished university (preferably Oxbridge or Russell Group).<br />Given your background you are going to be pigeonholed as “crime” and given the recent changes in fees etc I would say this is as competitive area as you could get when you consider that a large proportion of pupils are used for this type of work.<br />Being realistic you are up against the energy of the twenty somethings in a 24/7 role and looking back I now think that I wouldn’t have the energy to compete with these guys – most of whom that obtain pupillage are seriously bright and youth allows for burning the candle at both ends!!<br />I am happy to say that I have ultimately found a place in law and now practise as a solicitor but it is great to see the expression on people’s faces when you say “I originally qualified as a barrister”.<br />Ultimately you will need to decide whether you want to a) spend the money and b) put the work in knowing that unfortunately the odds are stacked against you – there is no way of sugar coating that I’m afraid.<br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09833403398862578168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-84626793176325619732014-07-10T20:43:22.421+01:002014-07-10T20:43:22.421+01:00HI, I have just been busy browsing and come across...HI, I have just been busy browsing and come across this site.<br /><br />A very interesting post indeed.<br /><br />So, I will throw this out to all to consider (with that smile one has when asked if they believe in miracles) and I hope reply with [constructive] feedback.<br /><br />I am in my early 50's and after a lengthy career as a police officer and then running my own company I would like to study Law with the aim of passing the BPTC and then taking it from there. I think I have worked out that if successful I will have passed BPTC in June 2016.<br /><br />If this is simply too old to predict a career as a Barrister, then what other options will I have to use my BPTC?<br /><br />So, please keep it real; and I dreaming? Will I ever be looked at by any chambers (other than the Flakland Islands)?<br /><br />Can't wait for the replies to come flooding in...<br /><br />Kind regardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-36719036154069787312009-06-07T22:34:37.093+01:002009-06-07T22:34:37.093+01:00Well, I was just browsing for pupillage and saw th...Well, I was just browsing for pupillage and saw this website. Fascinating and encouraging reading all your comments. I will be 42 tomorrow, did BVC 2 years ago, still wondering if i did the right thing. Being from the ethnic minority compound the complexity of securing a pupillage. <br />I am not willing to give up my current IT £40,000 a year job and sacrificing my family and kids to wipe aristocratic and pompous senior barristers. I have much more pride than just going for string of interviews humiliating myself. However, best of luck of all of you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-78367332886080441092009-02-09T02:33:00.000+00:002009-02-09T02:33:00.000+00:00Are former police officers viewed positively in ch...Are former police officers viewed positively in chambers.I know some ex police barristers, but is having been a police officer a plus to get pupillage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-38838488152601577042008-12-23T01:31:00.000+00:002008-12-23T01:31:00.000+00:00I'm doing the BVC at 32, and I certainly intend to...I'm doing the BVC at 32, and I certainly intend to push for Silk if I'm successful and believe myself good enough. I don't see what difference it will make being fifty-ish, I really don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-48857612027635680372008-05-30T12:29:00.000+01:002008-05-30T12:29:00.000+01:00HERE HERE Law Minx!I do feel slightly guilty since...HERE HERE Law Minx!<BR/><BR/>I do feel slightly guilty since I believe that an e-mail from me provoked the whole discussion which seems to have exhausted Simon or robbed him of creative thought.<BR/>Then again perhaps things are so hectic in Leeds?<BR/><BR/>I feel another thought provoking topic is called for, to ease Simon back into Blogger World!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-13157964806159847352008-05-29T17:51:00.000+01:002008-05-29T17:51:00.000+01:00This may be totally off topic, but Simon, where on...This may be totally off topic, but Simon, where on EARTH are you?! Your presence in the ether is SORELY missed!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-32034843152830060952008-05-06T13:24:00.000+01:002008-05-06T13:24:00.000+01:00hey sasha...how ya diddlin'?P's experience is that...hey sasha...how ya diddlin'?<BR/><BR/>P's experience is that Chambers are generally keen on transferring solicitors.....but the more experience the better.<BR/><BR/>Good luckMr Pineappleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08696204287962843200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-51218655484102263692008-05-06T10:10:00.000+01:002008-05-06T10:10:00.000+01:00Mr P, thanks. I have corresponded with the 'oldes...Mr P, thanks. I have corresponded with the 'oldest pupil in town', and he has advised lots of Grecian 2000 and Botox, so I think I am on a winner now.<BR/><BR/>SwizzSwiss Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03553439773901787323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-86833151463006352272008-05-05T22:23:00.000+01:002008-05-05T22:23:00.000+01:00Mr. P, what is the stance like on transferring sol...Mr. P, what is the stance like on transferring solicitors (from a relevant area of litigation, NQ or 1-2 PQE)?sashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01767002601644560163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-5141801551446196872008-05-05T22:21:00.000+01:002008-05-05T22:21:00.000+01:00Hey Swiss Tony...Mr P is a practicing barrister - ...Hey Swiss Tony...<BR/><BR/>Mr P is a practicing barrister - I can tell you that mature students at My set are generally looked upon very favourably. <BR/><BR/>In pupillage they bring a knowledge of the world to everything they do and do very well.<BR/><BR/>As long as they dont mind being the dogs-body for the year.Mr Pineappleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08696204287962843200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-27140608842427500302008-04-21T14:35:00.000+01:002008-04-21T14:35:00.000+01:00Mr 50 year old, being not very far behind you in y...Mr 50 year old, being not very far behind you in years, although having completed the BVC and hopefully attained a pupillage I will be pretty darn close in age to you, what have you found the biggest problem being with age?<BR/><BR/>When I look at whats ahead of me (just finishing the GDL now), I feel that there is not too much to concern me with age, I have all the qualities and more that everyone says a barrister needs, but there is a niggle in the back of my mind that age will be a problem somewhere along the line.<BR/><BR/>As with you, if I just have the prestige of being a barrister then all is not lost, its been fun, but it would be a shame to not be able to practise.Swiss Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03553439773901787323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-87965958355573620712008-04-11T21:56:00.000+01:002008-04-11T21:56:00.000+01:00I'm not sure how it is possible for you not to hav...I'm not sure how it is possible for you not to have received a response from the firms--automated rejections are ubiquitous. Unless, that is, you applied prior to the electronic age... Additionally, it is immeasurably more difficult to secure vacation schemes than it is to get mini-pupillages, so the fact of your failure alone does not shed any light on the comparative attitudes as a number of other factors could have been in play. <BR/><BR/>By the way, does anyone have any opinions on the issues I raised above regarding solicitors converting to the Bar? It's an issue I've been musing about for some time now and I would love to find out your opinions as well as that of our kind digital host.sashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01767002601644560163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-40925547328035109832008-04-11T21:47:00.000+01:002008-04-11T21:47:00.000+01:00I'm intrigued by the 50-year-old-pupil's suggestio...I'm intrigued by the 50-year-old-pupil's suggestion that mature entrants would be better going for the solicitor side of the profession. When I was considering my options I applied for a range of mini-pupillages and, at the same time, a similar number of vacation placements with law firms.<BR/><BR/>Every one of the Chambers I wrote to replied; all but one offered me a mini-pupillage, and the one that didn't wrote to me to thank me for my interest.<BR/><BR/>Not one of the law firms I wrote to even acknowledged my application.<BR/><BR/>To my mind, this gave a pretty strong indication of the difference in approach to mature entrants between the two branches of the profession. Nothing I've seen or heard since has done anything to convince me otherwise.Simon Bradshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14233721281522686341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-51352305299072868962008-04-11T12:47:00.000+01:002008-04-11T12:47:00.000+01:00I graduate in 1979 (same month as Thatcher came to...I graduate in 1979 (same month as Thatcher came to power), did other stuff for quarter of a century, did GDipL distance learning in the provinces (2004-2006) while working full time, did BVC in provinces (2006-2007). It is tough for everybody. The big issue for a mature entrant is the "commitment issue". This is a Catch 22. To get a pupillage you have to prove that you are willing and able to change professions. However, if you are willing and able to change professions ...<BR/><BR/>If you do this do it like I did it. Law is an interesting, intellectually fun, humane and soul-broadening discipline. You will learn a lot and meet fun interesting people. I enjoyed the BVC year more than any of my life (true). Even had I not got pupillage I would have learned a lot, made some great new friends, had a great partytime and enjoyed the social prestige of being able to mention that I qualified as a barrister. I had enough cash not to worry too much about that side. I have 20 years left to earn and £30k or so won't feature much by the end of that.<BR/><BR/>Do it for the right reasons but remember that the odds are against anyone and so much more against the mature job-changer. At your age I would have gone for solicitor - no question.The 50-Year-Old Pupilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10143818439614741406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-68331489376932216132008-04-10T17:44:00.000+01:002008-04-10T17:44:00.000+01:00Er, that previous post of mine would have made mor...Er, that previous post of mine would have made more sense if my first, longer epistle had actually posted properly!<BR/><BR/>In brief:<BR/><BR/>I am 24, but studying the GDL part-time while working full-time (in a job not related to law, but hoping to change). All the other part-time students I have met on my course want to be solicitors - not a knock against that fine profession, of course. I have also never met a barrister who likewise studied part-time, though of course I'm sure there must be a few loitering round somewhere.<BR/><BR/>So one does worry a bit when every other wannabe barrister one meets went straight from their full-time degree, to the full-time GDL and full-time BVC, maybe with a full-time LLM in between. This has inevitably given them time to amass a great deal of mini-pupillages and free representation, mooting and debating experience. They seem to be a very different sort of candidate to myself, for when we finally present all our mere applications to Chambers.<BR/><BR/>This isn't a moan about such students of course - I realise that they struggle to get pupillages too - rather just saying how refreshing it is to hear a wider range of applicant stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-1064196599421966342008-04-10T17:09:00.000+01:002008-04-10T17:09:00.000+01:00PS as a note of explanation, my third paragraph wa...PS as a note of explanation, my third paragraph was perhaps somewhat inspired by reading the Lawyer interview with the infamous Nicholas de Lacy-Brown, who complains about Oxbridge bias, yet otherwise appears to fit perfectly into that cliche of a well-off, Masters-coursing, full-timing law student).<BR/><BR/>But then, I did recently learn that he managed to secure a nice pupillage...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4932746992402771668.post-36387902792907959662008-04-06T19:35:00.000+01:002008-04-06T19:35:00.000+01:00A GP and you're thinking of going to the Bar? You ...A GP and you're thinking of going to the Bar? You don't have to work evenings or weekends (unless you're paid extra), public funds are thrown at you (instead of being scrutinised by short-sighted bureaucrats) .. am I missing something? If I had my time again, I'd train to be a GP!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com